For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...


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    I feel as though the way the basilisk is in modern day tremulous has been affected by other changes in the server which has, in my opinion, made it possibly a little too powerful.

    First of all is knockback. I'm not here to bitch about the change in itself and say how it should come back, but I just feels as though due to the speed that the basi can move, no knockback just allows a basi to charge straight through a rifle spray or shotty and (if u are a low ping player) easily grab them.

    That also raises the issue about how stupid the basi grab is for 100+ ping players. The amount of times I've played basi on servers I get about 20 ping on my basi grabs almost every time, however, due to my 120 ping on bunker I can be right next to a human at any angle and the grab just doesn't kick in whatsoever. This may not be fixable or easily worked around, but it's just something I wanted to have some kind of feedback / response on.

    But the route of my issue with the basi nowadays is how easy it has become to actually get in range of the human to grab them, seeing as no matter how many times you get a shot on them it doesn't shake them in the slightest. For example, with the rifle / lasgun the basi can strafe jump towards you and tank through all those bullets and be left on sub 20 hp but you just don't have enough time to shoot it enough before its actually grabbed you.

    Maybe I'm just shit, and that's fine, but I would like to see what people have to think about this and see if they do think that the basi may be in some ways now slightly too broken.


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    @IronClaw said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    the grab just doesn't kick in whatsoever

    top 10 reasons to finally learn how to use unlagged after playing for 10 years

    For example, with the rifle / lasgun the basi can strafe jump towards you and tank through all those bullets and be left on sub 20 hp but you just don't have enough time to shoot it enough before its actually grabbed you.

    top 10 reasons to /unbind s


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    I wouldn't say Basilisk are OP, they're just plain annoying. Instead of nerfing it directly, I'd do something to disincentivize the cancerous "camping corners even at S3" gameplay.


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    @Theriaca

    top 10 reasons to /unbind s

    In ATCS halls for example, the grab is about not far off half the width of the hallway (around 1/4). In front of A / H default it has range to initiate a grab while wallwalking on the ceiling. After moving out of the way the basi willl grab you with its ass anyway, then turns around and moves behind you while you're locked in place. It's happened constantly while playing against low ping basilisks.


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    @IronClaw said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    In ATCS halls for example, the grab is about half the width of the hallway.

    No.

    In front of A / H default it has range to initiate a grab while wallwalking on the ceiling.

    Dretch can headbite from there too btw. Is that generally problematic or are we going to rework the entire gameplay based on a random part of ATCS?

    After moving out of the way the basi willl grab you with its ass anyway

    Just unlagged things. He's actually looking at you when he grabs you, but you don't see it.


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    In ATCS halls for example, the grab is about half the width of the hallway.

    Yes that is a bit too exaggerated and absurd, I rephrased it now to be a bit more accurate since it is a lot less than half of the hall width.

    Dretch can headbite from there too btw.

    Yes I know about this, it can also be done on niveus, but the dretches are way easier to deal with than basis.

    Just unlagged things. He's actually looking at you when he grabs you, but you don't see it.

    I'm also aware of this, and yes I don't expect any sort of quick fix or easy solution to this cos it's just one of the limitations unlagged has, but it makes the basi all the more irritating on top of everything else. However, this has been a problem since forever and I never complained about it because there is no point and in the grand scheme of things isn't the worst or most important issue we could talk about.


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    @IronClaw said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    Yes I know about this, it can also be done on niveus, but the dretches are way easier to deal with than basis.

    I could argue about flamethrower being extremely broken in the vent to karith's elevator room, but it's also besides the point.

    the grab is about not far off half the width of the hallway (around 1/4)

    It's basically roughly the width of the basilisk. (Although, it's actually slimmer. But it's easier if I just picture it this way instead of going technical.)



    1. Basi has literally ZERO impact on any game. In fact I think basiwhores are detrimental to A in smaller games.

    2. The only thing to do with basi is to killwhore in annoying way.

    3. Basi is not OP, it's annoying as fuck, but that's it.

    4. Basi without gas is free kill 9/10, solo. Basi with gas is 5/10 doable, dance better, don't backpedal or run away b/c they are faster esp with strafejumps.

    5. Basi grab is dependent on ping. I've seen Cleanfaggot.aids grab me from impossible range, I've seen him grab another guy while he was behind him and they both had their backs to eachother in that moment, I've seen gas being applied to another player while basi was grabbing another player at least 2 Arms lenghts away. There's no way around ping, I doubt u can somehow upgrade netcode to better handle 150+delays without severely changing how Trem gameplay works.

    6. Spray and pray, dance like crazy. Ultimately get luci, move near walls, LET him grab you, when he does shoot the wall, not the floor. Most of them fall for this b/c basi is for pussies and for them the duel is over when they grab you.

    7. Don't hunt for basiwhores to make them stop, they never do. You're being distracted from spamming luci at A base. Instead assume the basi will go for you, so get that luci and let him come to you. Or just spam like crazy, they are tactical and lucispam>basi tactics b/c they can't take the splash.


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    @grmg said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    1. Basi grab is dependent on ping. I've seen Cleanfaggot.aids grab me from impossible range, I've seen him grab another guy while he was behind him and they both had their backs to eachother in that moment, I've seen gas being applied to another player while basi was grabbing another player at least 2 Arms lenghts away. There's no way around ping, I doubt u can somehow upgrade netcode to better handle 150+delays without severely changing how Trem gameplay works.

    lmao do u even unlagged
    WHY DON'T PEOPLE KNOW HOW UNLAGGED WORKS IN 2019



  • @grmg well, you could use these arguments for every alien. And Basi does have an impact... It can do fantastic rc jumps...
    With same logic i could also complain about rants camping behind the corner : p



  • @Theriaca said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    WHY DON'T PEOPLE KNOW HOW UNLAGGED WORKS IN 2019

    Do explain.


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    @grmg Let's see if I can explain this better.

    Firstly you have to understand what client-side prediction is. When you press W to move, notice that you start moving immediately, without any delay. The movement cannot possibly come from the server (because of latency); it's predicted by your client. It's sophisticated enough to be able to mimic (guess) the result of actions like moving, jumping, etc. (Of course if it happens to guess wrong, the illusion fails and the game starts looking very wrong – these are prediction errors.)

    Prediction is necessary in multiplayer games (try playing with /cg_nopredict 1). It comes at a great cost, though. All players and the server (which, in Quake, has ultimate authority) see the game slightly differently. Unlagged adds a whole another layer of clusterfuck to this but, fortunately, it doesn't affect Basilisk grabs.

    Now consider what's going on when a Basilisk is chasing you. Compared to the server (which, again, is the arbiter and decides all hit tests), you see yourself further than you actually are, thanks to prediction. At the same time you see the Basilisk in the past, because you see everything (except yourself) later than the server. In effect the distance between you and the Basilisk, as you see it, is vastly exaggerated and when you think you're out of range, you're not.

    Note that this anomaly depends only on your ping – local players will never see any Basilisk range issues. In case of unlagged weapons (all hitscan guns, bites, etc.) the enemy's ping matters too, which explains the Nigerian range phenomenon.

    In general this is an impossible problem to solve. There's physically no way to make the game consistent for everyone if latency is involved. The best one can do is design the game to minimize the effects.


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    @enneract Now people are going to want unlagged turned off.

    Would you rather have to guesstimate where the server thinks a player will be in the future to hit them, or, simply, hit where the player was in the past (which is confirmed information)?

    The former only really works when latency is low for all players. The most important factor is deviation; there is not much difference between the client-side position and the server-side position of a player if their latency is near-null, and as such both settings are equally suitable for LAN gameplay.

    However, when working with higher latencies and especially having such a wide range, unlagged is the obvious preferred choice. It is much easier targetting in the past than in the future. While for example chasing (involving high latency) may be wanky with unlagged, it would be near-impossible 18.2D chess without it.


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    Disabling prediction is not an option. If it were, people would already be using cg_nopredict. Unlagged doesn't even have anything to do with what I've said.



  • @enneract

    Holy shit, that's some serious clusterfuck of rules.


  • Council

    @IronClaw
    Unfortunately unlagged doesn't apply to basilisk grab which is why you are experiencing difficulties using it at higher pings.

    While I agree the removal of knockback has definitely benefited the basilisk I wouldn't go as far to say that they are OP.
    The class still suffers from a number of weaknesses which allow counter play and the class is arguably one of the most difficult areas of the game to master.

    Using a Jetpack completely hinders their ability to hold you in place (for a price of 120 credits, which is less frag credit than is required to become a basilisk on the aliens side)

    Additionally any form of coordinated teamplay (today known as stacking) or well placed MD/shotgun shots makes their life extremely difficult.

    @grmg said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    1. Basi has literally ZERO impact on any game. In fact I think basiwhores are detrimental to A in smaller games.

    2. The only thing to do with basi is to killwhore in annoying way.

    A strong basi player can definitely make an impact on the game. The portable healing aura they provide can be extremely useful in larger maps. If players wanted to killwhore they would just play rant, basilisks are probably the most supportive class for aliens par the granger.

    Additionally because they only cost 1 evo they can end up propelling or banking a large amount of evos for team rushes.

    Random noobs playing basi I would agree with your statements, if we are talking about the handful of basi mains we have, you are completely wrong.



  • The portable healing aura they provide can be extremely useful in larger maps

    That's used like once per day or a week, especially considering boost can be rebuilt after SD.

    If players wanted to killwhore they would just play rant,

    Unless they want to killwhore in basi like Cleanharry or few others.

    Additionally because they only cost 1 evo they can end up propelling or banking a large amount of evos for team rushes.

    Almost nobody does that. Rushes are rarely coordinated an preplanned, most of them are an effect of snowballing where one dude starts and others join.

    if we are talking about the handful of basi mains we have, you are completely wrong.

    No, I'm not.


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    @Ckit said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    Unfortunately unlagged doesn't apply to basilisk grab which is why you are experiencing difficulties using it at higher pings.

    Literal holocaust if you enable it for grabs, check out my troll diagram above if you want to know why.

    @grmg said in For once, I think it is necessary to at least discuss the basilisk...:

    That's used like once per day or a week, especially considering boost can be rebuilt after SD.

    Any good player (such as myself :realshit:) will enjoy having an adv. basilisk around e.g. bunker top. It allows to pressure the human base really hard and makes you able to intercept luci rushers constantly without having to deal with them splashing shit in base.

    No, I'm not.

    Well, turns out you are. For instance, cleanharry does more than just killwhoring. In fact, he usually covers up crucial base exits that are annoying to defend for other classes (c.f. the famous elevator basilisk camp in fort5, you already know why it's good), and often sticks to larger aliens to support them with his portable booster effects.

    As for base rushes: the fact they're not always prepared in advance doesn't remove to the fact basilisks can bank up on evos and redistribute them during rushes.


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    Whether Basilisk needs a nerf or not aside, how would we even nerf it in the first place?


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